Re: filmscanners: File sizes, file formats, etc. for printing 8.5 x 11and 13 x 17...

[Arthur Entlich <artistic@ampsc.com>]

Austin Franklin wrote:

 >>>>> I am curious how you know they (let's say the Epson printers)
 >>>>
 >> print more
 >>
 >>>>> than one dot at any one 'point' on the paper, ie, the CM, CY
 >>>>
 >>>> Let's call it empirical observation.
 >>>
 >>> I asked 'the power that knows for sure' and he said no, they do
 >>
 >> not overlay.
 >>
 >>> They are very close, but the definitely do not overlay.
 >>
 >> Nothing personal, but I don't believe your power.  My magnifier assisted
 >> eyes say otherwise.  Ask your "power" how the big block of near black
 >> CMY is created on the Adobe test print if the dots cannot overlay.
 >
 >
 > OK, perhaps we are using the same word to mean two different things. 
  Do you
 > mean they 'touch' and appear to overlap every so slightly?  That is 
from dot
 > gain.  If you mean they print in the exact spot, entirely 
overlapping, that,
 > I believe and confirmed, is wrong.
 >

No, I mean the dots are printed on top of one another, not near, and not
partially overlapped.

 > The printers to NOT mix inks.  If you place one ink over the other, 
you will
 > get the color of the top ink.
 >
 >

Did your "power" tell you that, too?  Epson inks, other than those for
the 2000P, 5500, 7500 and 9500, are dye based, and fully transparent.
If you place a cyan dot over a yellow, (or vice versa) you get green, if
you place all three, you get a dark brown.  If you place a cyan with
magenta on top, or vice versa, you get a nice ultra marine blue, yellow
on magenta, you get red, etc.  These inks/dyes work like most inks, in
that they have no pigment or opaque ingredients.  A one inch diameter
bottle filled with the yellow ink can still be read through, the magenta
looks like a full bodied wine, or concentrated grape juice, that's how
transparent these inks are.

The printer doesn't "mix" the inks, per say, but the inks are placed on
top of one another on the paper.  I suspect this is done through
successive passes, rather than on the same line at the same pass.

Even offset printers using halftoning do this, using translucent inks
which partially (and intentionally) overlap.  Since those inks are
oil-based and slower drying and tend to smear, and it is desirable to
avoid moiré patterns, there is an attempt to fill in the spaces on the
exposed paper, but some overlap even occurs in offset.

I'd would like to get the opportunity to email your "power man" him 
directly and ask him for clarification of the statements you are making.

I just took the time to look through a loupe at samples prints from
something like 12 different Epson printers, from the original Stylus to
the 5000, both 4 and 6 color, both 720 and 1440 dpi.  In each case,
looking at areas of 100% red, green or blue (all composite ink colors)
or CMY "black" there are very few or no dots that are distinguishable as
only one of the ink colors.  If you would like to prove this yourself,
using your highest resolution paper, print out blocks of pure red, blue
and green and CMY black.  Further, take a black and white photographic
image, scanned in gray scale, convert it to either CMYK or RBG, and
"color" sections of it red, green, blue and CMY black in something like
Photoshop.  Take a good look at the print under a loupe, and tell me
that the dots do not completely cover each other in solid areas, and
even in some that are not solid.

And finally, don't tell me you don't nitpick.  This whole discussion
came about because you had to challenge a statement I made when I was
explaining the difference between monitor, scanner and printer
resolutions.  The only reason I brought this matter up was to explain
the limited actual number of colors inkjet printers can produce with a
pallet of 4 or 6 inks, and therefore why their speced resolution is not
the input resolution needed for a print.  Even if it were the case that
inkjet printers could not place droplets of ink directly on one another,
this trite issue had little to no relevance to the substance of the
posting, which was to attempt to demystify issues of resolution which
often confuse neophytes to scanning and printing in the home-based
digital realm.  Yet, for some reason which only you and perhaps your
shrink can explain, you have found it necessary to challenge me on this
matter, when it's relevance is minimal in the overall point of the
exercise of that essay.

The only reason I even bothered to go beyond stating that "most consumer
inkjet printers only have 3 or 5 colors they can actually produce" is
because I've dealt with others on lists like this, who, like yourself, I
was sure would have pointed out that inkjet printers can also produce
several other complementaries, like green, red, blue and process black,
so I mentioned it.

I am not trying to chide you or censor your expression on this or any
other list, but it does get darn irritating when someone is standing in
the wings ready to question and challenge any perceived mis-step,
especially when it adds little to the discussion even if it were to be
resolved categorically.

The world is full of conjecture, opinion, ideas, notions, and even
inaccuracies, misunderstandings and falsehoods.  "Truth" is often found
in shades of gray.  We are all products of our personal and cultural
upbringings, and we are all unique in our perception and experience of
the world. Language is a tool and an expressive form with which we
communicate, not a physical property or a designed machine.

When you engineers come up with a computer that doesn't crash, maybe
then I'll feel more confident in letting you have a go at language.
Until then, accept its flaws, weaknesses, and lack of perfection.

Art



 >> Also, whomever the "power" is... did he work on the drivers for the
 >> original 720 dpi printers I use - the Epson Stylus color, pro and XL,
 >> which are the printers I'm using?
 >
 >
 > I do not believe it would be the driver that handled this. It is probably
 > handled in firmware.  He wrote the Piezography drivers, and as such, 
knows
 > exactly what these printers are capable of doing.  I would believe he 
knows
 > these printers better than any person outside Epson.