[filmscanners] RE: Suggestions for scanning 4x5 transparencies

["Laurie Solomon" <laurie@advancenet.net>]

Since you put it that way, the answer has to be it depends on who you talk
to. :-)  However, in all seriousness, I would say that in all probability
the average highend prosummer flatbed scanner is probably satisfactory for
producing scans intended for printing on the high end inkjet printers like
the Epson 2200, assunming the scanner has good dynamic range, an acceptible
bit depth, and reasonable optical resolution. Other design features and
specs, in my opinion, are of lesser significance in answering your question.
Resolutions is most important in determining how large one intends the
scanned image to be reproduced.  If we are talking of producing
magnifications of billboard proportions from a 4x5 or smaller (or even an
8x10), one would probably not only want but need the optical resolutions
provided by a high end drum scanner.  Bit depth becomes most important for
color but can impact on the number of tones of gray in grayscale one can
obtain in a scan; dynamic range is important in defining the contrast range
that the scanner will be able to render in terms of capturing details in
contrast to noise.

Things like snap, saturation of colors, contrast and tonal range, neutrality
of color, etc. in the final prints is more a product of the printer's
limitations and the limits of the media and inks used to produce the final
finished print.

Hence the limitations are products of which set of limiting factors one is
taking into consideration as being constraining factors in determining
"quality."

However, in the above, I neglected to mention that you have moved back and
forth between referring to the printing of color transparencies in color I
presume and the printing of grayscale files.  Your first concern was with
the lack of snap in the grayscale print versus what you saw in the monitor
with some referral even in that case to a comparison with Ilfochrome prints,
which are not grayscale but color prints.  Color and grayscale are two
different animals in terms of both scanning and printing; and one has to be
careful not to confuse the two and overgeneralize from one to the other.

-----Original Message-----
From: filmscanners_owner@halftone.co.uk
[mailto:filmscanners_owner@halftone.co.uk]On Behalf Of snsok@cox.net
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 11:10 PM
To: laurie@advancenet.net
Subject: [filmscanners] RE: Suggestions for scanning 4x5 transparencies


Yes, I see. We basically have two independent variables here: scanner
product and photographic product. We need to compare flatbed to drum
scanner, both printed on the same system, and then separately, compare the
Epson print from the flatbed scan to a digitally produced Lightjet or
Chromira on Ilfochrome.

On the other hand, as you say, each process has its limits. I guess what my
question should have been is this (and it may not be answerable in this
form): is a high-end consumer photoprinter such as the Epson 2200 likely to
be constrained by the quality of an image created on a moderate range
flatbed such as the Epson 2450? Or is the 2450 able to produce a digital
image of such quality that a 2200 would be the limiting factor (again, in
the context of 4x5 trannies in Velvia or Ektachrome E100 film?

Put another way, is it silly/unwise/profligate to spend more on a scanner
than the $399 or so for a 2450 if the printing device will be something like
a 2200 inkjet?

Stan

-----Original Message-----
From: filmscanners_owner@halftone.co.uk
[mailto:filmscanners_owner@halftone.co.uk]On Behalf Of Laurie Solomon
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 9:51 PM
To: snsok@cox.net
Subject: [filmscanners] RE: Suggestions for scanning 4x5 transparencies


What makes you think that printing grayscale using either the color inkset
to do it or even just the black ink from the inkset on inkjet paper would be
any different than printing in color other than the fact that there would
not be identifiable colors, althought the black may take on a color cast?
Be the inks pigmened or dye based, they are different than the dyes used in
and with photographic emulsions on either regular photographic papers or the
Ilfochrome papers.  While a high-end drum scan might help determine if it is
the printer or not, it may not be the sole factor if it does show some
difference.  Each type of media and process has its limits.  I think, if you
scanned the image in as a gray scale and converted it to RGB so the file
could be sent to a LightJet or a Chromira direct digital to photgraphic
print using Ilforchrome paper, you would find that the finished print would
be different in terms of snap and contrast than either the inkjet print or
the traditional Ilfochrome (if it were in color you would find that certain
colors did not have the same saturation as either the inkjet print or the
traditional Ilfochrome).

>The Epson printer did reproduce the grays much as we saw them on the
monitor.

Could that be because your monitor work space and printer profile were color
managed so that WSIWYG where as the monitor was not calibrated to a profile
for the Ilfochrome print (i.e., the paper, the dyes, the chemistry, and the
processing method specifics) so there was no WYSIWYG?

I am not trying to get on your case but only raising questions that need to
be attended to and researched.

-----Original Message-----
From: filmscanners_owner@halftone.co.uk
[mailto:filmscanners_owner@halftone.co.uk]On Behalf Of snsok@cox.net
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 9:14 PM
To: laurie@advancenet.net
Subject: [filmscanners] RE: Suggestions for scanning 4x5 transparencies


Thanks. Knowing the physical differences in the print media/ink, we avoided
any comparison of color and concentrated on differences in greys. The Epson
printer did reproduce the grays much as we saw them on the monitor.

For these two reasons, we thought the loss of contrast and snap in the grays
was more likely in the scan than in the print. I guess we could explore this
point by having the transparency scanned with a high-end drum scanner.

Stan

-----Original Message-----
From: filmscanners_owner@halftone.co.uk
[mailto:filmscanners_owner@halftone.co.uk]On Behalf Of Laurie Solomon
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 11:51 PM
To: snsok@cox.net
Subject: [filmscanners] RE: Suggestions for scanning 4x5 transparencies


>The grays in the
>image (lots of tree trunks) didn't pop out very well compared to an optical
>enlargement done on Cibachrome.

This may be more due to the Epson printer, the inks and papers used, and the
limitations of each than to the scanner per se. First Cibachromes (now
called Ilfochromes since its acquisition by Ilford) tend to be a much more
contrasty and vibrant media than is the case with inkjet inks and papers.
Moreover, each process uses dyes that have their own limitations which are
not the same; thus, achieving a similar outcome may be impossible no matter
what scanner one uses  with respect to this dimension.  This is not to say
that the choice of scanner may not have an impact on the nature and quality
of the scan; it just is not going to be the main determinant of the finished
print where the limnitations of the printer, inks, and papers will have a
greater bearing on the appearance of the finished product than the scan
unless the scan is really very poor or limnited in its quality.

-----Original Message-----
From: filmscanners_owner@halftone.co.uk
[mailto:filmscanners_owner@halftone.co.uk]On Behalf Of snsok@cox.net
Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 7:58 PM
To: laurie@advancenet.net
Subject: [filmscanners] Suggestions for scanning 4x5 transparencies


A friend works mostly in 4x5 color transparencies. He's interested in
acquiring a scanner capable of producing a decent image file for printing up
to 13in x19in on a new Epson 2200 printer.

He had a 4x5 scanned on a flatbed at a local photo store. It looks like the
image was scanned at 1600 ppi. The Epson printer was able to produce a very
nice sharp image from it after adding some edge sharpening. The grays in the
image (lots of tree trunks) didn't pop out very well compared to an optical
enlargement done on Cibachrome.

Can someone lend some advice about particular flatbed scanners that might be
adequate for this situation. He would prefer not to spend as much as needed
for something like the Polaroid SS120. The Epson 2450 appears to have the
right stuff.

Thanks,

Stan Schwartz
snsok@cox.net

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